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TL;DR: DRAGON AGE IS SRS BUSINESS!!
So, I finished Dragon Age 2. I liked all of it except for the fact that they ruined my favorite character. (warning: spoilers and ridiculous length)
Okay, "ruined" is too strong a word. More like "changed beyond recognition." There were still some epic moments with new!Anders, but they were far too few and far between to make up for all the "blah blah mages blah freedom blah JUSTIIIIICEEEE oh god what am I sulk emo cry" that for SOME REASON, Bioware decided was a great idea.
It must have gone like:
"Hey, we need like this totally broody character to go with all the other broody characters. But this one needs to be a mage and he needs to be CRAAAAZY cause he's gonna blow up a church."
"We don't have time to make another character, guys!"
"Wait, wasn't there a mage guy in that expansion we made over one weekend last year?"
"Oh you mean that Anders guy? The witty, snarky one who loves cats and gets all the ladies?"
"Yeah... no one liked him, right? They won't notice if we totally change him into a teenager in his bisexual emo phase, right?"
"Probably not. Hey we can stick that Justice guy in his body! That will be CRAAAAZY! LOL!"
Full disclosure: I LOVE(d) Anders. So hard. If I could have traded three characters from Origins for Anders to be in it, I would have. (bye Sten, bye Lel, bye... dog?) He was totally my type, and I don't mean that in a creepy way (maybe I do), but it's just the type of character that is always my favorite in a game. HE WAS A BRO. So yeah, I'm extremely biased towards old Anders. I will never know if my opinion would be different if I had come into it with no previous knowledge of how awesome he was. However, my boyfriend did exactly that, and we have the same opinion:
New Anders is a whiny terrorist bitch.
I tried. I tried SO HARD. I was always nice to him, supported him, face-eating Anders was pretty hot, I even ran off with him in the end. But I didn't like it. I wanted to help him redeem himself, regain some of that Anders-ness. BUT IT NEVER HAPPENED! He just went further and further off the deep end of SOUL-SUCKING DEPRESSION. Like why even bother? Now, I understand that some serious stuff happened to him. I am not trying to say that it doesn't make sense for him to be the way he was. If I had taken a spirit into my body and then found out that apparently I actually wanted to KILL EVERYTHING and was now the magical Incredible Hulk, I'd be kinda pissed off. But he's not a character so much as a plot device, because he doesn't change. He doesn't respond to anything Hawke does except to bitch and moan about THE MAGES some more, even if this is the UMPTEENTH TIME YOU'VE HELPED THEM, and eventually goes batshit just like everyone else in the end of the game and disintegrates the Chantry. FOR NO FUCKING REASON. No matter what you do! And so your choices are a) kill him, or b) absolve him of all guilt and let him go?!
ANDERS DESERVED BETTER, SIRS.
Even now I'm still trying really hard to like him. Not liking him makes me really sad. And I guess the fact that I'm so depressed about the whole thing may very well be proof that Anders is the best-developed character in video game history.
Now I'm gonna go re-play Awakening, massive bugs and all, and cry myself to sleep. (but not slit my wrists because that's blood magic, and Anders doesn't like that!)
And sorry for the rant. I kinda don't use my livejournal anymore, soooo....
Oh also: no epilogue blurbs? ENDING SUCKS
Angsty 
A lot of people seem to have this problem defining Anders' developments as a 'person.' I think it's tantamount to consider what the character has been through, seen and experienced in his life before you dismiss him as 'emo.' Calling someone 'emo' implies that they are overreacting and upset about nothing.
Think about this for a second; if you were in the Dragon Age universe and you happened to be born with a flicker of magic inside you, at an early age you would be stripped from your family, never to see them again and dumped in a prettied up and glorified little mage pen. If you develop too fast, if you are cinsidered by an arbitrary judgment to be a mite too powerful, you basically get given a lobotomy. That's horrible, and that's what Anders is fighting to stop. Stop the oppression, stop the pain, and stop the Chantry's deathgrip on the four corners of the world. Being a man fighting for this cause he's heavily burdened by it, as is any who fights tyranny and oppression. Anders also believes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and so if that means maybe not always being sunshine and freakin' bunnies, then so be it.
I think Anders displays a lot more emotional integrity than a lot of characters I've seen out there and he's certainly not something to be dismissed as 'emo' just because he doesn't tickle you down there as much as he used to with his playful banter. Things change, people grow up and that's important to have in a character, even something to cherish. Thank god he's not just another bishie-boy out there for squealing over, you know?
Anders' destruction of the Chantry may not have been the right decision by many people's accounts, but it's far from being 'for no reason.' Just sommin' to consider.
I guess I should say up front: This rant was NOT serious. Okay, it was in a way. I DON'T like what happened to Anders, and I DO miss the old one, but you seem to be latching onto words like "emo" and thinking I seriously mean them and am trying to insult him. As I noted on another reply, it's like my coping mechanism, because otherwise I think I'd be overcome by the very same soul-sucking depression Anders seems to be going through. It's just how I deal.
But I respect you taking the time to post a comment, so here I go, getting all SRS.
I don't think DA2 Anders is the awesome crusader for all mage-kind that he wants to be. I think he's a seriously messed-up individual. MAYBE the old Anders would have had a chance, if he hadn't gone and become an abomination and ruined a) his credibility and b) HIS MIND. It's not Anders anymore anyway. I'm gonna steal =Emotikonz's nickname and call him Janders. I realize Hawke would be meeting him for the first time, but since I played Awakening it was like I was reuniting with an old pal of mine, only to find out it was a totally different person.
So do you see what I'm trying to say.... I know this is probably incoherent but I don't hate Anders, I don't seriously think he was a whiny bitch. In fact I liked him SO MUCH that faced with what happened to him, and the horrible things that he does that I couldn't do ANYTHING to stop, nor could I help him find some sort of peace, or happiness, or whatever, when that's ALL I WANTED TO DO... it was either write a big sarcastic rant on my deviantart and draw some comics making fun of him, or probably literally start crying. Which is what I meant by the end of my post, when I said the fact that I'm depressed means this may be the best-developed character ever. The fact that he inspires such polarizing opinions, and SRS BSNS rants and discussions like this, probably proves that even further.
Anyways, thanks for taking time to post your opinion and I hope this wasn't a completely retarded reply.
First off, I can see why old Anders is missed. He was funny, charming and brightened the game, no doubt about that. However, his role in Dragon Age II was foreshadowed – whether deliberately or not – in conversations with Justice.
Justice: I understand that you struggle against your oppression, mage.
Anders: I avoid my oppression. That’s not quite the same thing, is it?
Justice: Why’d you not strike a blow against your oppressors? Ensure that they can’t do this to no one else?
Anders: Because it sounds difficult?
Justice: Apathy is a weakness.
Anders: So is death, I’m just sayin’.
Justice: I believe you have a responsibility to your fellow mages.
Anders: That bit of self righteousness is directed at me?
Justice: You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act to free those that remain oppressed.
Anders: Or I could mind my business, incase the Chantry comes knocking.
Justice: But this is not right! You have an obligation!
Anders: Yes well, welcome to the world, spirit.
Given that those conversations had transpired between him and Justice, he was perfect for the role BioWare put him up for. He personally experienced what the Templars were capable of against mages – saw their brutality. He had everything needed to be the one to start a revolution, he just had to get rid of his apathy. Regardless of what seems to be total lack of concern, Anders not only thinks about the issue, but in the end is swayed into merging with Justice, who offers to help him in his crusade. This change of heart is brought up in Dragon Age II in a banter with Merrill, where he remembers not being able to forget the words of the spirit, which led to his feeling the need to take action.
Second, I would like to point out “emo” is not the word you should use for him. It’s hard to imagine anyone being what they were when they’re possessed by a spirit that got twisted into something vengeful from all the hatred they kept inside. His own personality is falling apart, because he’s slowly losing himself to his principles. Anders is a desperate man fighting for a desperate cause, ready to die for his ideas – to die for freedom. Having depth and becoming serious, devoted does not equal being “emo”.
But he's not a character so much as a plot device, because he doesn't change. He doesn't respond to anything Hawke does except to bitch and moan about THE MAGES some more, even if this is the UMPTEENTH TIME YOU'VE HELPED THEM.
That’s not true. Essentially he still holds bits and pieces of his old self, a side of him that shines through from time to time either during banters or one-liners if Hawke has a tendency to be snarky. It’s during the last couple of years that he truly closes down and becomes more devoted to his goal. There are two reasons for that:
- In a friend romance, Hawke encourages him to be at peace with Justice inside of him, which leads to less struggling between them. Justice’s ideas become his, so his coldness can be put down to determination to reach his goal. In this case, he is fully aware of what he’s doing.
- In a rivalmance it’s the other extreme. Hawke tells him to fight the spirit inside of him and Anders tries. It gets so bad that he starts losing his memory, because instead of working together, Justice takes him over and controls his speech, actions. There’s a video on YouTube where Justice actually tells Hawke to leave their own house when they almost persuade Anders into giving up his plan of doing something really radical. His rudeness, or “whining” as you called it can be put down to trying to stay himself.
Third and lastly, the terrorist part. Blowing up the Chantry had to be done. If there was to be a change, if he wanted a way to make every mage rise up against their oppression, he had to do something radical. And I’m glad he did what he did.
Feel free to delete my comment if it’s not welcome. I merely can’t help myself from jumping in to defend a character that shares my principles almost exactly. As you’re biased with Awakening Anders, I am the same with the new one.
But basically it says the whole game I was like, "I LOVE YOU WHY CAN'T YOU BE HAPPY THIS ISN'T FAIIIIRRR!!" I couldn't accept him having to become what he was because he didn't deserve it, and honestly neither did the mages.
Do you believe that the Justice thing was positive? That's probably where we fundamentally disagree because I think it's probably the worst decision he made in his entire life. We'll probably have to agree to disagree on most points actually, as it's probably just a matter of preference for the character, BUT I do understand why Anders is the way he is. It just depresses me.
I also don't think killing a crapload of people is ever really the answer. Honestly, from what you said I think a rivalmance would have been the way to go for me, because at least he was fighting it, and KNEW that it wasn't the right way. Mages aren't making very good case for themselves either, when every one I come across is crazy or a blood mage. And this is coming from someone who was pro-mage since day one.
Anyways, thanks for taking the time to comment. Sorry if my reply makes little sense D:
It took me a day after I finished my first playthrough to get my head around everything that has happened to his character. Given that I'm a big fan of V for Vendetta, I didn't have a really hard time, because those two share a few traits. And like I've mentioned in my previous post, I'm very similar in mentality to new Anders.
Merging with Justice at first was a good idea, at least is my books. However, neither of them counted on the hatred Anders kept inside of him, so when the spirit started twisting into something which is a little more than a glorified rage demon, shit started getting unstable. Still, I don't think old Anders would've been able to pull everything off without Justice, mainly because his sudden determination to help the mages between DA:A and DAII didn't become from purely selfless reasons, but more like to silence his own conscience after the conversations I quoted in my post below. Merging with Justice took that selfishness from him and accentuated the side of him that did care for his kind, but was overshadowed by the need for his own freedom. For that, I think he was perfect for what he was chosen for.
I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to rivalmance him. I'd rather have him be a vigilante revolutionist than someone who's losing his mind, his personality and the memory of his actions to a spirit inside of him. Not to mention that you have to be really anti-mage to get him to 100% rivalry, and the mage inside of me would squirm a lot.
"Seriously, I can barely name TWO mages I met in DA2 that weren't completely insane or spent their free time practicing their awesome blood magic."
Yeaaah, DA2 was kind of lacking mages who were not poking around blood magic, but I don't think that's any reason not to rise up against oppression. There will always be idiots needing a punch in the crowd you want to shake the world for, but that's in the cards if you choose the revolutionist path.
I didn't think of V for Vendetta, but I can see that. Man, that was tragic too. I'm a selfish person, I admit, because I would pick the happiness of me or someone I cared about over a cause. I burned Amaranthine to save my friends after all... I guess that's where our opinions split.
I agree that merging with Justice was well-intentioned by both of them, but even beforehand Justice would approve of vengeance choices, so I think he was a bit unbalanced to begin with. And this is pure conjecture/imagination, but I can just see him, with his relentless black-and-white views, wearing Anders down until he finally just agreed out of guilt like you said. And if you're going to go all the way you can't have any guilt or regrets.... probably what helped screw the both of them up. I do believe Anders COULD have made a change without Justice... I just don't know if he WOULD have.
As for the rivalmance, I think that's just another basic difference in viewpoints. To me, he was going to be "losing his mind, his personality and the memory of his actions to a spirit inside of him" either way. Justice probably wouldn't stop until his mission was complete, and how much more would they have to do before he finally decided he was done? And how long could Anders hold on to himself? I don't want to see Anders disappear, which is why I would encourage him to fight. It probably wouldn't do any good though... in the end it seems you just can't help him, and by that I don't mean help him in his cause... just help HIM. It really depressed me. (back to the "I'm selfish" thing) Ugh, it sucks that you have to be really anti-mage though. I thought I could get by just... being mean to him? Like, I support the mages, I just don't support YOUR particular brand of rebellion. I don't know if I can be mean to Anders though, maybe I'll just watch it on youtube.
I knew there were tons of perfectly good mages out there who deserved to be free, and I sympathized with them, but DA2 made it so hard to stick by it when in the end even Orsino goes "WELP, TIME FOR THE BLOOD MAGIC." .... what?
I wouldn't say I'm all that selfless in this case, either. Whereas I support his cause fully, a part of me is selfish and wants to keep him with my Hawke, no matter what. Then there's another selfless part that wants to keep him close, because companionship seems to help him. If you check his codex entry in the game towards the ending of Act III, you'll find some interesting things, one of them being a quote from him where he says Hawke is the only thing keeping his sanity together. Still, I have to agree with you that Anders is going to fade away from himself, regardless of whether we pick a friend romance or a rivalmance. (Although, to me it seemed he was a bit calmer after he blew the Chantry, as if Justice was sated? Or maybe I read too much into that.)
"I do believe Anders COULD have made a change without Justice... I just don't know if he WOULD have."
Yes, I agree with that. Should've probably worded what I wrote above a little better, because that's what I meant.
The thing with the rivalmance is that you have to be a colossal bitch, and I kid you not. You have to accept deals from demons, overlook blood magic and speak really degrading of mages to really piss Anders of. From what I've seen, you can't get him to full rivalry by just being mean to him and not supporting his cause. I may be wrong though, but the videos I saw on youtube suggest that. Like you, I can't bring myself to be mean to him. *That* depresses me. A lot.
Don't even get me started on Orsino. When he did his little stunt, I was hoping that he was at least going to attack the Templars and not us. But alas, he didn't and I just sat there looking all "
Although baking cookies sounds good. I can still imagine him doing so on a good day of his in Hawke's estate. C:
I did notice that comment about Hawke being the only thing keeping him sane. It sort of reinforced my opinion that I was losing him no matter how hard I tried and it made me sad. I also saw his calmness as more "giving in". After you finish Justice (the quest that is), all he ever says if you click on him is "I think we should focus on the task at hand." It's like he's just given up on himself and put all his chips on one last act of desperation. Again, sad.
For some reason I was under the impression that Anders was all bitchy (like Morrigan) and easy to piss off.... that sounds WAY too out of line for me though. I plan on doing a pro-templar playthrough but it's gonna be a close one I think. No killing, just... go back to the Circle and be nice or something? Yeah, that's it. And seriously, even after Orsino turned into the CREEPIEST MONSTER IN THE GAME, you still had to kill the templars that were hanging around yourself. It was just pointless. But I've been told that if you side with Meredith you see him as a bit crazier, like he's trying to hide it from you when you're on his side or something.
Aw, on a good day... it sounds like he has some sort of horrible deteriorating illness, like Alzheimer's. On good days he knows who you are, on bad days he's just "RAARRRGHHH FREEDOM!" I just laughed and cried at the same time.
As for him blowing up the chantry, I'm 50/50 with him on this. One half of me says he's right, he had to eliminate the neutral party or nothing would get resolved, BUT, the other half of me says that blowing up the whole chantry and the nice little old lady in it was a little overkill. I still say that the game itself is (or at the very least, I hope it is) a setup for something bigger to come in the DLCs. The Dragon Age Origins DLCs were mediocre at the very least. Bioware made such amazing DLCs for Mass Effect 2, since they probably realized the fanbase of Dragon Age by now, hopefully, they will make quality DLCs for DA2